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jcmmanuel


February 15th, 2009

Evolution Is Fun (and makes Christians think again) @ 03:40 pm


[Originally published on August 31, 2008. Last revised on Feb 15, 2009.]

Why is it that the Genesis 1 account makes so many believers feel like they should reject evolution? That is the key question in this article, and I will suggest to stop doing this. Do not instantly fear as if I would necessarily feel uncomfortable with the idea of creation. I believe in the creation as described in Genesis 1. Yet I think evolution is conform to what happened besides the Genesis 1 story. It is my wish that at the end of this series of blogs on creation and evolution, some Christians may become less scared about the whole evolution thing. And I don't mean less scared as in "I'm not scared! God is in control!!"... (which sounds to me like scared anyway). I mean less scared as in "I'm not scared because I see that there's no conflict between science and religion".

We may need to rethink our understanding of some key issues. Basically, there can be no real reason to reject scientific data, nor should the idea of 'creation' be considered impossible just because a majority of scientists seems to think so. Some 40% of scientists believes in a God of some kind - that was not supposed to happen if creation would be such a foolish idea.

In my opinion, the picture is not that bleak for Christians - not at all. Provided that we can at least see the difference between what was written in Genesis, and how it is interpreted by some, or many, of us.

Science itself is on nobody's side. Science is a means of gathering data, categorizing this data, increase our knowledge about the world, the universe, and everything in it. Science is not a panacea against the diseases of mankind, or against religion, or against atheism. Science has its limits, and so has evolution, especially evolution as a theory.

Facts vs. Theories

It is important to understand the difference between facts and theories. As Stephen J. Gould pointed out long ago: besides the existing evolution theories, which will always remain hypotheses, there is also evolution as a 'fact'. The 'facts' of evolution are not identical with the theories of, say, an atheist, about how evolution happened. "Facts are the world's data" (Stephen Jay Gould, 1994, Evolution as Fact and Theory).

Evolution, like science itself, is neutral. There may be some problem with the term evolution (I'll get to it further on) but we should start from the rule of simplicity: evolution is the name for the kind of pattern we can discover from the scientific data. That is: it really looks like the human being has development through stages of evolution. The data reads like the traces of a very diverse past, as they are typically found in hard sciences that study the traces of living beings (biology, genetics) and their immediate environment (geology, paleontology). These traces are less prevalent in domains such as anthropology or psychology - and that is to be expected of course, if evolution was merely a physical development, also in terms of brains etc. - but not, and never, capable of determining something about the spiritual character of the human being. For that reason, evolution is an issue limited to the biology of life. The capacities of the human being may be much greater because we have brains and these brains are far more evolved - yet, by no means does evolution say anything beyond the physical level of these capacities. Humans are much more than the required physical preconditions for exploiting their own capacities. Humans are more than brains and brainwaves. Religion always knew that of course, always realized this.

So why then have we arrived at such a conflict model, a war between evolution and the position of faith? Mostly because of the pre-theoretical positions such as materialism, naturalism, determinism, relativism, which are are part of someone's world view - and in most cases this has been a non-religious world view, not to say an atheistic one. The same is also true for astronomy - a scientific discipline where no traces of earthlings can be studied, yet we witness the same tendency to explain the existence of the universe from a naturalistic viewpoint - at least that is the dominant viewpoint for atheists. These underlaying views have little to do with the scientific data on evolution itself. It is not so much evolution that colors the atheist interpretation of the facts, but atheism that colors the evolutionary data so that it becomes something supposedly hostile to Christian (and other) faith. However, all of that does not affect the simplicity of what evolution - that is the traces of relationships between living beings - means, nor does evolution require any specific world view. Atheism has no particular priority or advantage in it - whatever their claims may be.
Evolution may seem to impose a naturalistic world view upon us, but this is only the case if you already adhere to a naturalistic world view to begin with.

Evolution as a terminology

Now, as already said, it may be true that the term 'evolution' does not sound very neutral. But what is neutral? Rejecting evolution in favor of something we call 'creation' is not neutral either, and not acceptible in science. Science must not be rejected in the name of religion that soon, because it may well turn out that the confllict was only raised because of some specific human interpretations, not because there is a real conflict. I believe in creation, but creation is not a scientific theory - and that is clearly what's wrong with 'creationism': it attempts to mix up language of faith with the language of science. But Genesis 1 was clearly never intend to offer the readers a 20th century scientific theory. 'Science' as we know it today is a relatively modern phenomenon, so much has changed, so many new discoveries were made over the last 200 years.

The other side of the story is, that although this type of science can only 'read' what was already there (supposedly created), it doesn't follow that when science starts to unravel a great deal of the 'mysteries' surrounding nature (and the cosmos), monotheists should suddenly start to complain that the data would be in conflict with how we read Genesis 1. Because that is totally ignoring the possibility of mistakes in our own interpretation of Genesis 1. Christians are no little gods who have unfailing power to read it all perfectly. Examples of mistakes can be found throughout the entire Christian history.

So let us take an initiative from Christian side: I say we should accept the term evolution, as long as we can understand the term in the very first place as the documentation of the kinship, or proximity, between the living species. So the word evolution, as we will use it here, is about the 'factual data'. In that significance evolution reflects a pattern, a development path of some kind, which we happen to call evolution. This is a quite natural way of describing the findings. But this data tells nothing about the question whether or not there was a God who created our world and mankind. The latter issues do not belong to the domain of science at all.

I would admit that, if I could decide what word should have been used, it would probably opt for something more neutral - for instance hierarchy of species. But today, we Christians are coming over a century too late for proposals on redefining such terminology. We (some of us) preferred to throw in 'creationism' and we lost that battle. We have, in many ways, given the impression that we reject science itself - something Christianism traditionally didn't do. Christians could consider the word evolution the price they have to pay for those of us who played the clown for too long. But for me, I'm not even sure if the term can be considered a misnomer. Maybe it is a subtle misnomer because it has too often and too soon been hijacked and used 'as if' evolution resists the creation idea. The word carries a burden. Yet, evolution is a word that reflecs some things way better than the word creation. The word 'creation' does little to reflect the aforementioned patterns and similarities among all creatures. And creation, I repeat, is a term that belongs to the language of faith - it was never meant to reflect a scientific viewpoint, hence should never have been twisted into 'creationism'.

But what exactly must we make of creation?

Gap Creationism / Age of the Universe

The idea of creation exists as 'data' (facts) as well, that is, as a written record (Genesis 1 and some other places) in a book which is at the very least partially a book with the characteristics of a historical record. We cannot elaborate now on the exact character of the many Bible books (that will be for another time), but Genesis 1 is certainly true from a faithful viewpoint, and also worth to be considered a true record from a historical viewpoint. However, Genesis does not elaborate on theories whatsoever. Judaism in general was never 'theoretical' to begin with (that would be an insult). Let alone scientific theory. This is why the theory called creationism did emerge only since the evolution data (and hypotheses) came abroad. Creationism is many different theories and options. There are many variants between the most basic creation theory (say: Young Earth Creationism) and those who are much more 'open' to debate and testing against the scientific data.

Actually, before Young Earth creationism there was something even more radical, a 'Young Universe creationism' if you want, although virtually no believer holds to that idea anymore. But only some 50 years ago it was still thought by many more Christians that the entire universe was just about 6,000 years old.

Basically, what happened was, that by reading Genesis 1 in a literalistic way, a self-made problem was introduced with regard to the Christian receptivity of scientific data. I'll come back to this important issue a couple of times, but basically we started from suspicion, and that attitude is no guarantee for staying close to the Lord our God. It may rather reveal fear, in stead of courage and realism and faith.

Then, a gap theory was added to solve our embarrassment. This is often called Gap Creationism, or the Ruin-Reconstruction interpretation of Genesis 1. The idea was that a huge gap existed between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, and this gap was used to 'generate' the millions of years that science (evolution) was digging out of the universe and pouring out upon the faithful communities.
Note: This gap actually was thought to occur more precisely in the midst of Gen.1:2. The second part of that verse reads: "And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters". This is an indication of the beginning of a work of creation, and can be seen as opposite to "the earth was without form, and void" in the first part of the verse. The actual reading of this passage would than be that in 1:1 the universe is created, but 1:2a explains that it was only as raw matter; 1:2b introduces the notion of the Spirit moving around preparing for something, and 1:3 starts to form a real environment from this matter. In itself, there is nothing wrong with this reading, but the implementation of a gap in there is a product of the imagination rather than solid theology.
What the gap did was, first of all, allow the universe to be more than 6,000 years old (according to the current consensus among scientists: 13,7 billion years). Later on, it also allowed the earth to be more than 6,000 years old (by assuming that the creation of the earth, as raw matter, happened before Genesis 1:3 just the same).
So, as you can see, the gap proved to be useful in different ways. This is, of course, suspicious - we suspected 'science' but we did not always suspect those who thought they had somehow to fight against what science was showing to mankind.

So what we have been doing is, first of all declaring Genesis 1 somehow compliant with scientific research (which is entirely against the spirit of the Scriptures), then we had to find a gap in Genesis 1, in order to solve the problem we had introduced. The gap was acting like a time machine, basically beaming the universe into a far more distant past, then beaming the earth (as raw matter) into a distant past as well, so that we could still feel somehow in accordance with science, without 'giving in on faith'. But giving in on faith was, in reality, already begun with the idea that science would possibly be incompatible with God's creation. Today, it is tempting just the same, to beam the original (pre-Homo sapiens) being also into a distant past, through the same time machine, the gap in Genesis 1:2. The result, in all cases, is that Genesis 1 remains readable as 'creation' within a timeframe of some 6,000 (or maybe 10,000) years.

But there's reason to believe that we've been approaching this completely wrong from the very start. We've been subjecting Genesis 1 to literalism, as we will see.

Virtually nobody holds on to the vision that the universe would be 6,000 years old. The Young Earth theory has still followers, by the way.

One of the extreme responses from Christianism with regard to the age of the universe is the idea that all traces of evolution are sort of 'implanted' in the world and the universe. When the light of some stars is said to have traveled many light years, and our universe would be only 6,000 years old (a viewpoint seldom heard anymore today), than it was suggested that when God created these far away stars, He also created the whole light bundle of it 'towards the earth', so that we could see the star. It shows us how people initially tried to deal with new data as it came available to us while we were locked into a literal reading of Genesis 1.
More ridicule assumptions have been given as well. For instance the idea that the 'light' belongs to satan (the 'angel of light'), so satan deceives us by tricking us into believing in these long distances of stars - in reality they would not be that far away. This is one stap from the idea that we are living in a 'hollow earth', with all the starts inside...

It is remarkable however, that the great Church fathers (such as St. Augustine) and also more recent great figures of Christianity (like C.S. Lewis) were much more reluctant to read Genesis 1 as if it was meant to reflect scientific insights. They were way more prudent with interpreting the Biblical account of Genesis 1 in an all too literal way - even though they were absolutely firm believers in God. It seems that they realized that science is an activity preoccupied with facts about and observation of the material world, and that this was simply a different kind of business. Lewis did not feel that much 'attacked' by science. Many Christians have never felt that much attacked.

We should understand that this problem is not particularly due to the Genesis text. No one had any idea about the age of the universe before science started to generate theories based on the data they gathered through modern techniques such as used in infrared astronomy. This is important to understand, unless you really want to misunderstand the facts as they occurred. Admitted, there may be some truth in the suggestion (also proposed by atheists like Dawkins) that religion impedes the ability of (many) people to discover things. What he means is: by thinking 'creation', people may tend to be frightened away from 'evolution', hence science. But this is only true in a very limited sense: it is due to a particular interpretation (one most Christian scientists have always suspected) on how to read Genesis 1. This is a far cry from claiming that religion itself is the problem. There can be little doubt that many people, who rejected evolution, have lived a lot more useful lives than many theorists who, besides reading their research data, also felt entitled to propagate evolution as 'essential' to the kind of lives we live. Nothing could be farther from reality as we will see. Evolution may be a beautiful thing for those who understand it, but its importance with regard to real life is easily overestimated.

A similar mistake is also found among Christians, who make their interpretation of Genesis 1 a breaking point of faith. Why on earth did some Christians start to believe they had the right to evaluate someone's faith based on how they read the 6 days in Genesis? I insist: the Church Fathers didn't hold such narrow views.

Age of the earth: 4,5 billion ears

As we already said: once age of the universe was accepted to be much older, it was only a matter of time before we would accept an older age for the earth as well. The current consensus in science is that the age of the earth is estimated to be 4,5 billion years. Just like the age of the universe (13,7 billion years), these are incredibly large time spans and one might be tempted to suggest their first purpose to be wide enough to be capable of replacing a really great God! Nevertheless, these numbers are based on data gathered through scientific research. No matter what kind of pre-scientific reasons might have been operative behind the scenes, the outcome is data that passed the tests, based on currently held scientific requirements. Christian scientists in general do not contest these data, and there is in fact no reason to contest it - except for the fact that one must always remain sceptic with regard to where data ends and interpretation starts.
Christian scientists often have a more open view on these things - because for them, evolution does not function like a 'free pass' to get rid of the God idea. So the reasoning of Dawkins can be inversed: Christians who believe in evolution today, are not tempted to cling on to evolution theory for reasons related to anti-religious feelings.

It is self evident that the outcome of a quest for the equivalent of the power of creation could hardly be anything less than another unimaginable kind of thing, or numbers. Compare it to the parallel universes theory (today believed by Dawkins as well). Nobody can see other universes than the ones we can observe through our best instruments. There are valid scientific reasonings (if you want a comprehensible book on it, you could read Lisa Randall's Warped Passages - this is one of my favorite authors). However, when problems are detected and Christians answer with the suggestion that this could be God, scientists are quick to express faith in such hypothesis like invisible parallel universes. But, be that as it may, science measures data and must classify it according to the rules of the game. This game is in many ways a mathematical game, because it is the only possibility option to 'reach out' where we cannot possibly have any physical access to. And science is not philosophy: it does not search for the right questions, it just questions. Science is not religion either: it does not search for the right answers, it just formulates answers as logically as possible. That is the beauty of science, even while this beauty has been underestimated by Christians in more recent decades, and abused by non-believers as a tool against religion (which by definition it cannot be). The mathematics in scientific theory are not by definition advantageous for atheists, they also serve in many ways the vision that there is a lot of intelligence in the system (although that must not be turned into an 'intelligent design' theory because that is repeating the same error as when we turned creation into creationism).

The Embarrassment Factor of Christianity

We can learn something from the gap theory, which might be helpful. I found the following nice statement on the subject:
"Thomas Chalmers [the theologian often credited for having started to preach the gap theory], to his credit, refused to accept that the Scriptures had been broken by the growing body of geological truth of his time. He did not lose his faith in the accuracy of the Holy Bible, nor did he go into denial of the forensic geologic facts." (Beyond Gap Theory Interpretation of Genesis).
Two interesting observations: 1) Christians often seem to be pushed into defense by science, and 2) Christians - or at least Christians like Chalmers - don't have to turn into some kind of denial modus when confronted with 'disturbing' scientific data.

But why did it nevertheless no good to us? That is because the solution was not the right one - in spite of the good intensions.

Our embarrassment factor is not so much related to the new 'facts' of science; it is much related to the way we get to this acceptance. The same article reveals this mistake in my opinion, when it adds the following comment:
"That gap has always been in the Scriptures since the day Moses penned the book of Genesis. However, only in post New Testament times, and only after man's knowledge about Earth's natural history increased greatly, has the Spirit opened people's eyes to its existence. And only by rightly-dividing, and gaining true knowledge through the Lord Jesus Christ, can the reader start to comprehend the doctrinal significance." (Italics added)
However, did the Spirit also open our eyes to discover modern cooking in the Bible? This is 'poking' the scriptures until something comes out that can 'prove' Genesis to speak science. You can find more sophisticated 'explanations' of how to make the Bible support a gap theory on The Gap Theory Page (and elsewhere). The important point however is to realize that the only reason why we have been tempted into thinking that evolution should somehow fit between Genesis 1:1 en 1:2b, is because we have read Genesis 1 as if it was talking science. The assumption that the gap 'has always been' there in Genesis 1 is an attempt to retroactively tracing back our new knowledge into the Bible. That is by definition suspicious. And even while a book may contain some secrets that are only understood later on - this is true for an intelligently written novel for instance - there are limits to what you can achieve by retroactive interpretation.

The danger is also that this approach simply eliminates the need to watch out for (and correct) our own misunderstanding of scripture in many ways. Believers can get away with any kind of 'beliefs' this way - there's nothing to correct them, there's always some verse that may 'explain' your particular views no matter how flawed they are. A correct learning process would result in showing a more careful approach of 'theory building' upon Biblical data (especially in cases where the language seems to be more allegorical, as in Genesis 1, 2).

Considering our interpretations of the Bible as provisional seems to scare many Christians. Part of the problem is certainly that believers are not always fully aware that reconsidering interpretations of this kind is something totally different from reconsidering the very fundamentals of the Gospel. Of course, some Christians seem to have made the literal interpretation of Genesis 1 core to Christian faith. That, in my opinion, is a very serious mistake. Christians have also argued about things like the head cover for woman, during prayer (1Cor 1:5) and while many Christians see this as an instruction embedded within the cultural situation of that time, others have argued that 'the Word of God is clear about this' and 'nobody can restrict the Word of God' etc. Those are the people who usually think they 'do not interpret' the Bible - they just 'read it as it is' - yet suggesting that is already interpretation: they treat the Bible as if it were a military handbook, or The Little Red Book of Mao Zedong. Reading the Bible this way must be a slap in the face of God. It's pretty much Pharisaic. It means that Christians have (again) lost the basic understanding that while God is great, his creatures are not always that great, and certainly not automatically. We often need the insights and wisdom of other people, to begin with.

However, I do understand that rejecting Genesis 1 may look to some Christians like rejecting the whole Bible. The Bible is a historical document (even though the standards of history writing were different from what we are used to today). So rejecting Genesis 1 would have serious implications. And didn't Jesus cite from the book of Genesis? All of that is true and valid. However, nowhere did I say that I reject Genesis 1. And a 'historical book' does not mean that its style is always that of history writing. I do believe every word of Genesis 1, but I may not share your ideas about what exactly it is telling me, how these words should be read and interpreted.

The Genesis 1 'species' and Theistic Evolution

Expressed in terms of theory building (although lining the Biblical record with scientific theory directly is a mistake in my opinion, as I said), where are we now? We find that we renounced Young Earth Creationism in favor of Gap Creationism so to speak (because of the apparent very old age of the earth). What would be our next 'creationist' model, which would relieve us from our new problem - given the fact that we consider atheistic evolution as the least probable option?

Some models are unacceptable for most Christians whatsoever, such as Pantheistic evolution (we do not believe that God evolved - that is more the Karen Armstrong kind of pseudo-Christian stuff).

Christians seem to be drawn more and more towards exploring Theistic Evolution (God as the directing force behind the evolution process, in one way or another). I must admit that I do not like this name, I don't feel comfortable
with, it does not properly explain my own position. I will explain my position later on.

Theistic Evolution may overlap with Gap Creationism in so far that the emergence of the first living species (plants, animals) can be put before the gap. It then follows a similar assumption, that is: the first living things were the 'raw materials', while from Genesis 1:3 on these materials become composed as the environment for the human being. However, all of this begins to feel way over the top. Gap theory 'solved' raw materials rather easily, but life is a little more sensitive - this starts to feel ugly.
But the origin of the problem is still the same: it was self-made.

Theistic Evolution gets rid of any gap theory in Genesis 1. We have come to a point where creationism and ID have been given up as mistakes. While scientific data may suggest the first appearance of life on earth(abiogenesis) to have happened some 4 billion years ago, and we feel not entitled to put that as 'raw materials' in Genesis 1:1, we take a new fresh leap towards science by accepting abiogenesis to be a part of what is called creation, that is: Genesis 1:3 and further. By consequence, creation and evolution melt together in one act of divine creation, which is usually called Theistic Evolution. And although this concept still means that we are somehow 'poking' Genesis 1 until it delivers scientific or pseudo-scientific speak, it certainly does this in much better ways than creationism or ID did. It explains things way better, and it is not anti-science.

The move from 'creationism' towards 'Intelligent Design' was already a first sign of this new development: the attention goes to 'design' because it had become clear to most of us that evolution is a fact.
But ID did not really solve the problem. ID largely remained an empty, or at least very static concept, it hardly improved over time. Of course, Christians assume an Intelligent Being who created us, but the problem with ID is that it tries to inject this Intelligent God into the sciences. That won't work. That battle has been lost already.

The feelings of many Christians today with regard to Theistic Evolution is that it seems to reduce Genesis 1 to an allegory with no historical foundation anymore. But that I believe is a matter of understanding the true nature of the scriptures (I will cover that after my series on creation / evolution). Just think about this: Jesus also taught his audience many times through an allegory (there's nothing strange about that style), but at multiple occasions we feel these stories are derived from some real event. It does not matter that we cannot always be sure about that - the common thought is that allegorical lessons were usually derived from real events, but told in a way which emphasizes the true relevancy of it. Today, even non-believers who are serious historians would oppose to the idea that allegories are fairytales. We know all too well that every story has some reality at its origin. Historians discovered this much to their own embarrassment - with regard to Homer's Iliad en Odyssea for instance, formerly considered almost like fairytales but not anymore so today.

There are parts of the Bible indeed, where the writing style is arguably not characteristic for a historic account. The first chapters of Genesis certainly look much like falling into that category, as does the Book of Job for instance. But allegory does not imply that the story was just 'invented'. The creation of Adam and Eve can be read as the beginning of a new era, introducing a new awareness of the divine, of God. Creation in this case would be a process of creativity and a new beginning - and from God's viewpoint, this is the Creation of a mankind in a much more spiritual significance and totally separate from the scientific view on how the human species evolved physically. This creation concept has apparently been described as an intelligently designed process of course, the modeling or shaping of the human being. That is, in my opinion, an approach which makes much sense, and totally avoids the idea of incorporating scientific thought in the story.

This human being, in the description of Genesis 1, 2, to me, still ROCKS if I may say so. Adam and Eve much look like the 'modern human being' we are (sometimes) so proud of. Most people are not particularly proud about The Big Apes, the way an ordinary 'evolutionist' is (particularly with some Christians around, who in his opinion always need a lesson or two in science). It is questionable if 'The Big Apes' would have occured in Genesis even if the Jews would have known what scientists know today - I don't think they would have told us explicitly that Noah put two of these Big Apes in his ark, because these apes are not relevant whatsoever with regard to what religion is heading for. Those interested in a better future usually don't expect too much from apes.

Some provisional conclusions

The purpose of this article was to separate the models of evolution and creation, without canceling one of these. This, of course, inevitably leads to the question what's left from the Genesis 1 report. We did not explain Genesis 1, we just said: this is not what evolution is talking about. I also antecipated a little, for the sake of those who have much trouble with grasping this evaluation. For instance, I pointed out that evolution, while an interesting field of study, is not the domain of immediate interest of religion. Religion is not against science at all - it comprises the means to support scientific inquiry, and especially the sense of wonder that drives so many scientists. Religion however targets a different faculty of the human being, it represents a different kind of human inquiry. Science is only a tool, be it an important tool in
service of mankind, especially in medical care for instance (genetics is a perfect example of potential useful application of such knowledge).

This position does, in my opinion, not inevitably lead to 'theistic evolutionism' (the position supported by Francis Collins and, I think, most Christian scientists today). Creation may remain creation, not mixed with evolution. But that we will have to explain, and we will have to get rid of some traditional baggage which tends to make it impossible to understand Genesis 1 in a more natural way.

It is certainly important that believers come to realize that they should not be all too impressed by the triumphant, disdain-emitting grimace of an arrogant denier of everything beyond physics or biology. Most people who talk about science in general and evolution in particular are rather 'gatherers of data', who usually present their bits of data in ways that please them, not doing any effort to set out the data and their idea of it against a broader context of thought - because they limited the scope already to what scientists call methodological naturalism, which is an operation modus for doing scientific research. Many scientists however, and non-scientists as well, have clearly been promoting ontological naturalism. Naturalism is more than just a temporary operation modus for them, it is their view on the world, on life itself. That is a vision which is by no means required by science.

Some of them make it even worse: they also 'gather' bits of data from religious sources, especially the Bible, and play the same game at that level. Even scientists do that - Richard Dawkins for instance. In many cases (including aforementioned), their writings on that topic reveal little serious interest in the tenets of what religion really is for believers. But we have talked enough about the 'new atheists' by now (see previous articles).

However, on the religious side of the amphitheater, Christians too have a great deal of homework to do. Being frustrated with Genesis 1 and waging your little war against science however is not part of that homework. Handling the Genesis account with respect and doing an attempt to think in a less Western manner about these chapters, thereby focusing more on the 'real estate' of your faith - the fact that God can change people for instance - could be a much brighter idea, and a lot more useful for the human species in general.

Much of what is suggested here is about being creative with creation. t is ALSO about being real. The entire idea that Genesis 1 would teach us that the earth is 6,000 years old is, in itself, not realistic - nut only because of what we know today, but also because no one's life or thoughts have ever been improved by 'knowing' that the earth is 6,000 years old. This whole idea lacks essentiality. It may have been comprehensible that this idea was held 100 years ago. Today, we should feel the weight of this lack of essentiality. The Bible does not prevent the adaptation of our own thoughts to new situations, new times. After all, our human ideas are temporal.

For evolution too it is true that the little wars of atheists lacks essentiality in just the same way - it's all about denial, not science. Genesis 1 talks about the sun the moon, our visible world. Still today, these planets are 99% more important to us, to life. Without the sun, we're all dead people. The remaining 1% of stars and planets represents beauty to most people. The milky way will just increase our sense of beauty and awe - fair enough. Knowledge of the universe may also, probably, help us in other domains. Insight in the movement of celestial bodies, or the noise of the universe, may lead to scientific interesting discoveries for instance. Or, more spectacularly, it could help us to avoid an asteroid to crash into planet earth. Still, without the Sun, it would not matter to us whether such a collision would happen or not... So there still is something bizarre about crying holy over the stunning achievements of science and poke fun at Genesis 1 from that viewpoint, when you realize that Genesis 1 still has the more important facts in the picture that scientists can cough up even today. Even the probably most useful domain of science - medicine - is present in the first chapters of Genesis under the form of the Tree of Life.
The Jews knew what they were doing.

So be real, to begin with. Then, it may turn out, if you return to Genesis 1 and read it again, you may discover the beauty of it, without falling into the unrealities we have faced for over a century now.

To be continued ...

Some references



 
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Comments

 
[User Picture Icon]
From:[info]jcmmanuel
Date: February 15th, 2009 02:50 pm (UTC)
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By the way, don't look for blog post nr. 6, it has been eliminated from the original planned series because it was about something that I had to work out further.
(Replies frozen) (Thread)
[User Picture Icon]
From:[info]efriden
Date: February 15th, 2009 03:15 pm (UTC)
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Interesting - thank you! In this comm a post such as this will however easily turn into flame-bait. Let's hope for the best!

Also: we just recently had a discussion touching somewhat on this, you might have noticed.
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From:[info]cmaried
Date: February 15th, 2009 03:35 pm (UTC)
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Most people are not particularly proud about The Big Apes, the way an ordinary 'evolutionist' is (particularly with some Christians around, who in his opinion always need a lesson or two in science). It is questionable if 'The Big Apes' would have occured in Genesis even if the Jews would have known what scientists know today - I don't think they would have told us explicitly that Noah put two of these Big Apes in his ark, because these apes are not relevant whatsoever with regard to what religion is heading for.

Lol. Aren't you even going to say something about the bad science in this article?

[User Picture Icon]
From:[info]cmaried
Date: February 15th, 2009 03:22 pm (UTC)
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Rejecting evolution in favor of something we call 'creation' is not neutral either, and not acceptible in science. Science must not be rejected in the name of religion that soon, because it may well turn out that the confllict was only raised because of some specific human interpretations, not because there is a real conflict.

I don't reject observable evolution, but have found 0 scientific reasons to reject the Creation narrative, either. God uniquely created man apart from other species. Man is here because God created him. Evolutionary theory actually rejects divine guidance in favor of natural selection, which occurs "randomly" under environmental influences. In ET, only Deism or Atheism is acceptable. If you've read Species, you'd find that Darwin completely rejected the notion of a creator-God divine because of the Problem of Evil in nature.
So sorry, even if the creation narrative were allegorical, it still wouldn't complement Evolutionary Theory.

Oh, and I looove the reasoning of this argument in the article. I suppose I should accept that Jesus had a biological father, too? Because science has thus far shown that it takes human sperm and egg to create a human being.
I suppose I should reject most of the miracles in the Bible because they aren't scientifically plausible.

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From:[info]jcmmanuel
Date: February 15th, 2009 05:17 pm (UTC)
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Dear cmaried, you are re-acting too fast. I found no reasons either to reject 'the creation narrative'. What I reject is the mix of religion and science called 'creationism'.

"God uniquely created man apart from other species." - Sure, no doubt about that in my mind.

"Evolutionary theory actually rejects divine guidance" - Wrong - it is atheism rejecting it, not evolutionary theory in general.

"natural selection, which occurs randomly" - I would say, just as random as many other things in life (accidents seem to happen randomly, and try to tell it otherwise to a mother who lost a child in an accident). However, you and me may still believe God has a hand in things after all, even when we don't understand. That may be true for evolution as well. But science can or will not prove that kind of things. And that is the point here.

"Darwin completely rejected the notion of a creator-God" - Darwin was a theist, and later on he doubted - but he did not reject faith. Darwin wasn't Huxley.

"...the Problem of Evil in nature" - that is a philosophical issue as well, and by all means far beyond the scope of evolution anyway. So if Darwin rejected it, it would not have been in the name of science, but because he would have been tricked into a philosophical pitfall. Please don't mix up all those things.

"even if the creation narrative were allegorical, it still wouldn't complement Evolutionary Theory" - The point is not in complementing, as that would again introduce a mash up. It being allegorical has nothing to do with defense pro or contra evolution - even while it may of course help to read things as they were intended!

"I suppose I should accept that Jesus had a biological father, too" - Not at all. I am not a naturalist who has problems with God intervening in the rules of nature.

"I suppose I should reject most of the miracles in the Bible because they aren't scientifically plausible." - Not at all. Same reason as above.

Thanks for your comments.
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From:[info]just4kinks
Date: February 15th, 2009 06:06 pm (UTC)
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I suppose I should reject most of the miracles in the Bible because they aren't scientifically plausible.

To be more precise:

If you have no rational reason to assume a story is true
AND
The story is physically impossible

The correct approach here is to reject it as untrue.

Don't forget, had you been born to Hindus in a Hindu society, the silly and untrue stories you'd believe would involve, for example, people with the heads of elephants.
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From:[info]sergeyhudiev
Date: February 15th, 2009 09:11 pm (UTC)
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have found 0 scientific reasons to reject the Creation narrative, either.

I believe, that Creation narrative doesn't use scientific language, and doesn't provide any scientific information - so it just can't be in disagreement (or agreement) with scientific data.

Evolutionary theory actually rejects divine guidance in favor of natural selection, which occurs "randomly" under environmental influences. In ET, only Deism or Atheism is acceptable.

I believe, that we can separate two things:

1.ET as scientific theory
2.Atheist ideology, building itself on Evolution story.

Absence or presence of Divine guidance - it is just not scientific question. It can't be answered with scientific method. For instance, chemistry can answer questions about chemical reaction in the engine of your car, but it can't say anything about goal of you trip - or absence of such goal. As far as I see, both sides of Evolution-Creation controversy break borders of science. Science - with it's method - just has no proper tools to say anything about God existence. I agree with jcmmanuel - science itself is neutral.

I suppose I should reject most of the miracles in the Bible because they aren't scientifically plausible.

Miracles - as unique events - are outside of Realm of Science. Science doesn't work with miracles. It can't prove or disprove them.
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From:[info]cmaried
Date: February 15th, 2009 03:27 pm (UTC)
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The entire idea that Genesis 1 would teach us that the earth is 6,000 years old is, in itself, not realistic - nut only because of what we know today, but also because no one's life or thoughts have ever been improved by 'knowing' that the earth is 6,000 years old.

Where does Genesis teach the age of the Earth? Chapter, verse please!
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From:[info]cmaried
Date: February 15th, 2009 03:39 pm (UTC)
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I'm sorry to spam your personal journal, I thought this entry was in [info]_ljchristians!! I must have clicked on your name instead!
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From:[info]jaipur
Date: February 15th, 2009 03:40 pm (UTC)
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It's not in a single verse. It's estimated from all the verses about who begat whom down to someone whose timeperiod can be historically placed. Assuming begat means "fathered directly" as opposed to "had a descendant, possibly a few generations later and we didn't record all the intervening generations".
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From:[info]jcmmanuel
Date: February 15th, 2009 05:19 pm (UTC)
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"Where does Genesis teach the age of the Earth? Chapter, verse please!"

The point is that Genesis 1 does NOT put a time stamp on the creation of the earth.
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From:[info]just4kinks
Date: February 15th, 2009 06:09 pm (UTC)
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All creation stories start with a purported beginning and walk us through to known history.

Read Genesis. You'll see the lineage (complete with timeline) is traced from Adam to Abraham.
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From:[info]just4kinks
Date: February 15th, 2009 06:00 pm (UTC)

I'm sorry, this conflict is inevitable

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There are three basic ways of interpreting Genesis.

1: It is literally true

Pro: The Bible can purely be claimed as true

Con: The problem with this is that we know it isn't true.

Why it's wrong: Sciences (e.g. geology, paleontology, astronomy) are consistent and show Genesis is completely wrong.

Who: People who are very poorly educated and/or are very intellectually dishonest.



2: It is literally true as long as you interpret the text creatively

Pro: The Bible can purely be claimed as basically true (one day is 10 billion years long, another is 100 million, etc)

Con: Bible is now 'fudged' and what it says may not be what it means.

Why it's wrong: First, plants are created before the Sun. So, this approach is simply wrong.


3: Genesis is a metaphor

Pro: Facts are irrelevant

Con: The Bible is no longer grounded in truth

Why it's wrong: Genesis clearly establishes a lineage from Adam to Abram (Abraham) and an associated timeline. It clearly isn't a metaphor. As a metaphor, it really doesn't track well to any objects of metaphors. Finally, Genesis just gets the facts wrong. You don't set up a metaphor for something that actually did happen and get the facts wrong. That makes no sense.




Genesis is simple evidence that the Bible is largely fictional. Christianity is based on that fact not being true. You can't get the unwashed masses to follow a book that you told them isn't true. You can't get bright people to follow a book that they know is a lie.

The only approach here is the one that is taken. Muddy the water so that the simpletons can continue to believe in literal truth and don't confront the literal/metaphor issue so it can remain conveniently unclear.


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From:[info]jcmmanuel
Date: February 15th, 2009 07:26 pm (UTC)

Re: I'm sorry, this conflict is inevitable

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just4kinks,

On 1: "The problem with this is that we know it isn't true" - No, that cannot be the problem, as you cannot know that. You are just labeling here, it is no argument. And what I don't like about your post(s) is, that you tend to completely ignore what others wrote (in this case me - but who wrote it is not important). Science is NOT "showing" Genesis to be completely wrong at all, that is the essence of my blog. Science has nothing to say about how reliable a historical book is, or whether or not faith in God is acceptible. You seem to miss the point completely.

On 2: Here, you are wrong in almost every possible way. "Interpret creatively" is a nonsense-label. Interpretation is always creative in a way, but not in a negative way per se. Science is also highly based on using creativity - now what is that telling us about "creative interpretation"? Nothing. And your conclusion that the Bible would, in this interpretation, be "fudged and what it says may not be what it means" is nonsense as well. Interpretation is something all of mankind has always done - and scientists do it all the time. Philosophers did it. No doubt interpretation plays a role in religion. Would you really insist that to be an meaningful argument of some kind?

"plants are created before the Sun. So, this approach is simply wrong". - Not at all. In an allegorical teaching the ordering of these days has a meaning. It just appears to me and many others that this has never been intended to be read as if these days represent sequential time order. Also, things like plants before the son may just prove that there was this idea that light existed apart from sunlight. That was not necessarily a scientific insight, it could be a philosophical insight - as God is considered to be Light (compare 1John 1:5), but for the Hebrew monotheists this was already evident from the fact that God was the creator of natural light. There is nothing wrong with any of these things even philosophically, as far as I can see.

On 3: "Genesis is a metaphor - Pro: Facts are irrelevant" - Nonsense, metaphors do not ignore facts nor make facts irrelevant. "Con: The Bible is no longer grounded in truth" - nonsensical as well, as truth is not grounded in literalism. Further on, you ignore the fact that I called Genesis 1 (and 2) metaphorical but not the genealogies in Genesis. It seem that you are (deliberately) mixing up everything here. "You don't set up a metaphor for something that actually did happen" - Yes, that is *exactly* what people at those times did, and Jesus' parables were no exception. Narratives do communicate things in different ways than history telling. Allegory is mixed with historical accounts in Genesis and this is not exceptional in ancient records. The rules for history writing were different then from now - but not necessarily wrong. Professional scholarly research helps us to find out how to read these things, but there is nothing in it that would "make no sense". You are not supposed to read ancient books from an armchair with pizza still between your teeth and from that position claiming that these writings don't comply with how you use to read stuff.

I expect more intellectual honesty in discussions.
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From:[info]kisekileia
Date: February 15th, 2009 08:33 pm (UTC)

Re: I'm sorry, this conflict is inevitable

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Why are you in this community? It seems like most of what you post here is just dumping on Christianity.
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From:[info]cmaried
Date: February 17th, 2009 04:43 am (UTC)

Re: I'm sorry, this conflict is inevitable

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Of course, the narrative wouldn't be scientifically plausible if we're dealing with a supernatural parousia-era that preceded death and decay, the latter of which is implied to have occurred after the Fall of mankind. With the fall of mankind, the whole creation fell.

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From:[info]augustine
Date: February 15th, 2009 06:18 pm (UTC)
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Very well-written! :-)

I'm not saying I agree with every detail (especially since I was admittedly skimming it somewhat, and so may have missed some important things), but at the least it certainly makes some good points.

As for Genesis 1, I liked this treatment of it by Jimmy Akin, in which he briefly examines various theories concerning its interpretation, testing them from a literary standpoint.

http://www.jimmyakin.org/2006/02/genesis_one.html



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From:[info]jcmmanuel
Date: February 15th, 2009 07:36 pm (UTC)
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Thank you - I could have added it to the references section. I would immediately admit that my viewpoint is most close to the "Framework Interpretation" and that I do not follow the "Ordinary Day Interpretation" nor the "Gap Interpretation" (see my text) nor the "Day-Age Interpretation". I must admit that I was completely forgotten about the "Revelatory Day Interpretation", but now that I re-read it, it seems obvious that it deserves to be forgotten;) Thanks for contributing this useful link.
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From:[info]mintogrubb
Date: February 15th, 2009 08:07 pm (UTC)
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1)
if you are going to discuss " facts v. theories"
don't forget to include the fact that ' theory' has meaning in science beyond ' just a hunch'.
A 'theory', to a scientist, is an *explanation of why*.
Creation simply says " God did it", but makes no predictions on what we may find or why it should be.

Evolution, in saying that the primates arose from earlier forms of life, is saying, in fact that there should be certain signs to show this. fossil hunters have taken to looking in rocks of certain ages, expecting to find the link between fish and amphibians there - and found them.
Why do we have 'blind spots' in human vision?
Evolution can explain this by saying that we got here by natural selection, that once life aquired a template, we were stuck with certain features. and the nerve ' wiring ' in front, and not behind the retina is one of those things .

Science is neutral, like Reality is neutral. however, some forms of faith (like saying "The world will end in 1975" ) are not going to survive a run in with reality.

Declaring that the world is flat, or that the Sun goes around it, is not going to survive an encounter with Reality. Believe that way, and you have to live in denial - but millions did in the past. many people will continue to live in denial of reality today.

The danger lies in rejecting what else Science can offer. should we stop using our brains when Science contardicts our current understanding of Scripture? Or would it be best to say that scripture was originally written in a foriegn language, and we have got mere translations?
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From:[info]jcmmanuel
Date: February 15th, 2009 08:57 pm (UTC)
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Hi, I agree with almost anything you wrote here.

However, "Declaring that the world is flat" must not be taken as if that was the usual view in religion. That was not the case at all. But believing that "the Sun goes around it" is the language of an observer in ancient times, and can still "survive an encounter with Reality" if you ask me. Please don't blot out the full perspective of "reality" in the name of science. I guess you would still, today, talk with your beloved about the beauty of the sun disappearing behind the horizon. Imagine she would slap you in the face, complaining that your nonsense "is not going to survive an encounter with reality"? What reality would that be? Could your beloved one be a computer in that case? A brain on legs? But, I guess you know what I mean.

Reality is NOT something that science can define for us. Science has another kind of reality to investigate - it is a reduced one, for the purpose of what this discipline is intended for.

Kind regards.
From:[info]evilref
Date: February 16th, 2009 06:39 pm (UTC)
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I have to say that this is a non-problem for me. I accept the Bible is inerrant in its field; but if I want to assemble a barbeque, I don't read the Bible, I read the instructions that come with the barbeque.

If I want to grow vegetables, I consult a gardening book, not the Bible.

You can quickly demonstrate that the Genesis account(s) are not intended as a chronology, without reference to any other text. Just read Genesis Ch.1-2, and ask "which was made first, plants or people?" According to the first account, the plants were made (Gen. 1:11) before the people (Gen. 1:27); according to the second account, the plants were not made until there were people to tend them (Gen. 2:5).

The truths of Genesis are truths about our relationship to God and His Creation, not truths about cosmology.
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From:[info]jcmmanuel
Date: February 16th, 2009 07:53 pm (UTC)
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The so-called contradiction between the Gn 1 vs Gn 2 account is in my opinion non-existing, there's just a different focus.

But the plants being there before animals, knowing that many 'basic' plants need animals to survive, has been an argument against literal reading. However, literalistic reading has of course suggested solutions to the problem - there can be no doubt that all things can always be 'explained' with arguments, even while arguments may be very weak. Accepting the allegorical character of Genesis 1, 2 makes such problems melt like snow under the sun. The order (plants before animals) does of course still make sense here, as it reflects an early philosophical view on 'quality of life' - plants have no consciousness, animals have that but no spiritual qualities, humans have exactly that. This is the 'sense' that the allegory makes, in contrast to what just4kinks (above) was arguing.

Kind regards.
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From:[info]cmaried
Date: February 17th, 2009 01:41 am (UTC)
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I think the other thing to keep in mind is that when we read the story of Adam and Eve, we are reading about an era of Parousia. With sin and the fall of man, *everything* changed, everything became subject to death and decay. The universe is "winding down", so to speak.
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From:[info]providence4u
Date: February 17th, 2009 01:10 am (UTC)

The lie

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To begin, it is not Genesis 1 that leads me, and I rather suspect many others, to reject evolution as irretrievably un-biblical; it's actually Romans.
I will bullet my points because I'm on a very old laptop...
1. Paul writes that it was Adam's sin that introduced sin, and thus death itself, into the world. Evolution demands death, of predecessor species (and missing links), it cannot happen without it. The argument about when Homo Sapiens differentiated is beside the point, Adam's Neanderthal parents (which oddly are not genetically linked to us) would have died, before his sin. But the first animals killed were Adam and Eve's clothes (again, Genesis, as literature, leaves no room for metaphor or allegory; neither again does Jesus' quotes of it).
2. Paul also writes that all of creation is groaning, awaiting the manifestation of the Sons of God; because Adam subjected the entire universe to death and destruction of disobeying God and handing title over to Satan (I am drawing on other references here).
3. God, as Jesus reminds the Saducees and Pharisees, is the God of the living. Evolution further demands that God was required to create a heck of lot of stuff, and then destroy it all (Pre-Cambrian) simply because he had other things (man) in mind. This does not jibe with His claim that it was good, at the end of each day of creation.
4. Evolution flatly contradicts the Biblical idea that each animal reproduces its own kind; why else do you think Darwin kept quiet for 30 years? Notice also Darwin didn't pipe up 'till Wallace tipped him off that he was about to lose his fame for the idea; not your most Christian attitude toward the truth.
5. Atheists, infidels and their kind started this entire debate; the number of Christians willing to agree is irrelevant to what the Bible, and thus God himself, has to say.

You claim Christ, that's good. You need to stop trying to mix worldly wisdom with that which comes from above. Making friends with atheists, telling them how intelligent they are for denying God and making fun of Christians does not reflect well on your lord, nor does it save them from hell.
From:[info]evilref
Date: February 17th, 2009 05:20 am (UTC)

The Confusion

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1. Paul writes that it was Adam's sin that introduced sin, and thus death itself, into the world.

What Paul actually writes is that through Adam's sin, death "passed upon all men".

Romans 5:12-17 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)"

It's a long point, mostly in brackets, but that is the way Paul wrote. It says "all men", and mentions Adam and Moses. It doesn't mention any animals. We talk about "a world recession", but that doesn't mean the birds are out of work. Words have different meanings according to their context.

2. Paul also writes that all of creation is groaning, awaiting the manifestation of the Sons of God; because Adam subjected the entire universe to death and destruction of disobeying God and handing title over to Satan.

Again, words belong in context.

In Romans 8:19, Paul introduces the term κτισεωε, which King James' translation team translated "creature". Now today "creature" is normally read to mean "animal", but it is better to read it "creat-ure" -- a part of creat-ion.

The reason is that the word "creation" in v.22 is also a translation of κτισισ. The word is a collective noun for the creatures in v.19. Those "creatures" (vv.20,21) are clearly people, so the "creation" is clearly Mankind.

3. God, as Jesus reminds the Saducees and Pharisees, is the God of the living.

You are aware that the dispute between the Pharisees and the Saducees was about the Resurrection (Matthew 22:23, Mark 12:18)?

4. Evolution flatly contradicts the Biblical idea that each animal reproduces its own kind;

Evolution never said that monkeys gave birth to men. Darwin was ridiculed for this idea, but he never said it. What evolution describes is a process of gradual change. At what point in a rainbow does the red become orange? (Some languages don't even have a word for orange!) I have dark hair and my son has blond hair. Does that mean that I am reproducing my own kind, or not? Be careful how you answer: the difference between a black panther and a regular jaguar, for example, is nothing more than hair colour.

Within science, the classification of species is a very hard problem, and one that humans simply can't do reliably -- or they wouldn't keep changing their minds! All the definitions we have of "a species" (a definition with huge political implications) mean that, in terms of evolutionary theory, an animal always gives birth to the same species as itself.

Science itself quickly leads to contradictions, and many of the "New Atheists" don't understand science. If they did, they'd realise that science doesn't support atheism. Science doesn't support a lot, when you get down to it. Science is about "how", not "why".

Unfortunately, a lot of Christians don't understand the Bible, either.

It doesn't make it easy for either side to get their point across.
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From:[info]dennisthetiger
Date: February 17th, 2009 02:36 am (UTC)
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I figure this. Genesis tells what God did. It doesn't tell how God did.

The other side of the coin I see is in one of my hobbies - basically, winemaking. If I take a 5 gallon jug, add grape juice, and dump in a packet of yeast, I'm not going to have wine in a week. I'm going to have wine in a couple of years. To create a good thing takes time, sometimes copious amounts of it - and therefore I think this reflects how long God really took in the world's creation. Basically, more time than many people have to wait for something really, really good.
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From:[info]jcmmanuel
Date: February 17th, 2009 07:38 pm (UTC)
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"To create a good thing takes time"

Good point! Actually that will be the subject of the 5th blog on evolution / creation;) I planned no more than 5 blogs on this subject.

Kind regards,

J
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From:[info]brijeana
Date: February 21st, 2009 06:19 am (UTC)

Wow.

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I'm not finished reading all the comments. But I had to stop so that I could actually comment on the blog.

I greatly enjoyed your article and it definitely gave me a lot to chew on. I'm not a science geek, and I'm not a Christian apologist so I usually steer clear of this sort of thing. There is often a lot of hostility and a lot of ulterior motives involved in Christianity vs. science debates. I greatly enjoy the idea that there is no real conflict between science and Christianity beyond the personal interpretations of the people arguing. I love what you say about the true purposes of the disciplines of science, philosophy and religion. The fallibility of man is a wonderful thing to remember; I liked that your blog touched on that a bit also.

I look forward to reading more of your blog later on. Mostly I feel that it is reaching toward an elevated debate - beyond the stalemate of anti-Christian/anti-science arguments. I'm really drawn to what you have to say for that reason.

Also, I don't know if it was intentional or not, but your blog made me laugh a lot. That's always good. :D

Thanks for sharing your POV and knowledge and thanks to the people who commented on the blog. The resulting debates were a great read also.
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From:[info]jcmmanuel
Date: February 22nd, 2009 02:14 pm (UTC)

Re: Wow.

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Hi brijeana,

Thank you. There is no doubt that the discussion is moving. There may be some sharpening division between Christians, but the requirement will always be to accept each other whenever we feel/know the person is honest in his faith. Evolution does not touch the fundaments of Christian faith as much as people often think. Reading Genesis 1 non-literally is tough for many christians, yet they should understand that this is a legal way of reading these chapters, and by no means is it the same as denying Gods act of creation.

The laughing was not my intent, but it sounds to me like a good sign about your own attitude to it;) I love the debates too. Most critics also have good arguments (maybe with one exception). Actually you can always learn from each other.

Kind regards.

jcmmanuel